Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

[Xcali1985]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

I don't think deflect is horribly unbalanced. Sure it can annoy a lot if you happen to get bad luck and get several deflects in a row but that's part of the game. The devs could take a look at the amount of damage received from a deflect but it's up to them. I think deflect is a fun skill and nerfing deflect would probably hurt too much the enforcer class. You can try counter the deflects by using ghost tag, health setup and armor.

i think the OP is simply stating that the deflect skill is flawed when you look at it as a whole.

If you win you deflect less damage than if you lose which cheapens it if you build your toon stronger.

It will deflect an entire hit, even though the attacker won't get full credit for a non-deflected hit. It should be even, you can only deflect the amount you would have absorbed. If you want to stack health to build a deflector then you should have some advantage, but someone with 1800 health shouldn't be deflecting a full 5k shot back on the attacker.

If the above is done deflect isn't over powered and it essentially eliminates any complaints, if a sniper or ghost wants to roll with 1800 health and hit enforcers then that's on them.

[p@go]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

Pls just leave "deflect" it the way it is. I Play on both sides (attacker and defender) and of course i hate it the same way when i get killed through a deflected shot, but that is part of the game. The same way i like it when my enf kills an attacker with deflect. Enforcers are a fully help class unlike Titans. While Titans have Bull Rush, an Enforcer just hasen't a decent attack. Stim and Deflect is all he got. So, just leave it the way it is...

Besides: Deflect isnt the only passive skill that is working on toons thst didnt join. It is just the one u notice the most. Dodging Spree and all other passives are working too, u just dont see them in log. What is coming next? Removing skills of Lieutenants when a toon isn't active? Cmon.

[Bungboy]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

i think the OP is simply stating that the deflect skill is flawed when you look at it as a whole.

If you win you deflect less damage than if you lose which cheapens it if you build your toon stronger.

It will deflect an entire hit, even though the attacker won't get full credit for a non-deflected hit. It should be even, you can only deflect the amount you would have absorbed. If you want to stack health to build a deflector then you should have some advantage, but someone with 1800 health shouldn't be deflecting a full 5k shot back on the attacker.

If the above is done deflect isn't over powered and it essentially eliminates any complaints, if a sniper or ghost wants to roll with 1800 health and hit enforcers then that's on them.

And if they do change it to this, I'm all for giving buffs to the scaling so it's better for stronger toons and worse for low health/low defense toons. As a defensive ability should be.

[Dan O'Nyme]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

I think deflect should work like Tusk deflect, more reliable no RNG. 15% damage mitigation at lv 3 and send back 15% damage.
Or make it scale -> 15% damage mitigation and deal 3% of total health+defense power back to attacker. ( enforcer Who choose to be no medi defender by having large amount of health should not be punished)

Same thing should be Done to tita nanosuit : when there is a nano proc give armor depending on health/DP so it scale up aswell.


Just my 2cents

[Missy]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

I've been following this thread on and off. At first I thought "leave it alone, it's fine". But now I have to agree with making it scale up with the toons defence power. As pogo said, stim and deflect are really all an enforcer has; it seems wrong that deflect becomes less effective the stronger a toon gets. Where's the incentive to remain an enforcer for strong toons?

[DFish]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

I cant find the thread, but someone showed the chance of catastrophic deflect was very low.

A ghost has 20% chance for 3x shot, a 15% chance to 4x the critical damage, and 40% chance to critical hit while on rush. Put all that together, and then give the defender a 15% chance to deflect, the chances are pretty low. But throw in the ghost 20% to dodge.

Also, I know people are trying to use an example, but no lvl 100 enforcer has deflect 3. I forget the total cc needed for deflect 1-3, but it's close to 20k cc.

Here is over powered. A toon with 3k attack power hits a defender with over 8k defense power for 1700 on a loss. My LSI min ghost routinely hits people much stronger for over 1k damage with all the 3x power shot, 4x crit on rush, with Overkill, on a loss. Even so, that defender only has 15% chance to deflect.

IF enforcer was so Overpowered, why are most defenders Titans?

I hate getting deflected, but I say leave it alone. I wouldn't be angry about deflect being limited to the health you have left or maybe 2x health left.

The only way I would consider scaling would be if deflecting losses did more return damage, but enforcers have last stand.

[tambunan]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

I cant find the thread, but someone showed the chance of catastrophic deflect was very low.

A ghost has 20% chance for 3x shot, a 15% chance to 4x the critical damage, and 40% chance to critical hit while on rush. Put all that together, and then give the defender a 15% chance to deflect, the chances are pretty low. But throw in the ghost 20% to dodge.

Also, I know people are trying to use an example, but no lvl 100 enforcer has deflect 3. I forget the total cc needed for deflect 1-3, but it's close to 20k cc.

Here is over powered. A toon with 3k attack power hits a defender with over 8k defense power for 1700 on a loss. My LSI min ghost routinely hits people much stronger for over 1k damage with all the 3x power shot, 4x crit on rush, with Overkill, on a loss. Even so, that defender only has 15% chance to deflect.

IF enforcer was so Overpowered, why are most defenders Titans?

I hate getting deflected, but I say leave it alone. I wouldn't be angry about deflect being limited to the health you have left or maybe 2x health left.

The only way I would consider scaling would be if deflecting losses did more return damage, but enforcers have last stand.

You mean this one?

http://underworldempireforums.com/showthread.php?36943-What-use-for-an-enforcer&p=164959#post164959

The Op/Wrathy on that thread try to simulate the formula of crazy deflect chance

[Metalstorm]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

I cant find the thread, but someone showed the chance of catastrophic deflect was very low.

Except that only holds true if both toons are roughly the same strength and under those circumstances deflect is fine. As previously stated the problems with balance occur as the power differential between the attacking and defending toons increases. As that level increases the probability of a catastrophic deflect increases significantly.

When I use AR it’s the norm for me to hit level 500 toons for 1500-3000 damage so if you add overkill or any of my ghost skills procing then, at 5500 EvE health, it’s pretty much a 1hit ko on a deflect.

If I hit a level 2000 defender though I’ll likely only do an average of 200 damage so that’s all that would be deflected back at me. Even by the most conservative estimates of 1500 damage to a level 500 and 200 damage to a level 2000 there are still huge discrepancies in the amount of deflect damage I should expect to receive.

Over 100 tokens that’s 22,500 deflect damage from the level 500 and only 3000 damage from the level 2000 which is both overpowered for the 500 and underpowered for the 2000.

A ghost has 20% chance for 3x shot, a 15% chance to 4x the critical damage, and 40% chance to critical hit while on rush. Put all that together, and then give the defender a 15% chance to deflect, the chances are pretty low. But throw in the ghost 20% to dodge.

You’re comparing multiple tier 2 skills to one tier 1 skill. Of course the tier 2 skills should seem more powerful. It’s also beside the point because it ignores the relative strength of both toons. A big ghost doesn’t need to land a 1% chance hit to potentially be 1 hit killed by a deflect.

Also, I know people are trying to use an example, but no lvl 100 enforcer has deflect 3. I forget the total cc needed for deflect 1-3, but it's close to 20k cc.

That’s a moot point because the level is purely for illustrative purposes. There are also no level 10,000 toons. The point of that example was to demonstrate that under the way deflect currently works the level 100 effectively has a 15% chance to 1 shot the 10,000. But in the inverse scenario (level 10,000 defender and level 100 attacker) the amount of deflect damage would be negligible because the amount of incoming damage is negligible.

So deflect can deal massive damage to the biggest toons in the game but hardly anything to small toons.

Here is over powered. A toon with 3k attack power hits a defender with over 8k defense power for 1700 on a loss. My LSI min ghost routinely hits people much stronger for over 1k damage with all the 3x power shot, 4x crit on rush, with Overkill, on a loss. Even so, that defender only has 15% chance to deflect.

Not only is that not overpowered, you undermined your own argument when you acknowledged that the probability of such a crit is exceptionally low. If you want to consider wether or not something is overpowered you have to look at the average impact of that skill and not just the outliers. That’s why I made the comparisons for deflect over 100 tokens because you would expect the numbers to roughly even out. If that case were the norm then you may have a case to answer for ghost being overpowered but its not. You are also comparing the synergy of multiple tier 2 skills and overkill so you would expect the end result to potentially be quite powerful.

IF enforcer was so Overpowered, why are most defenders Titans?

Enforcer as a class isn’t overpowered. Deflect isn’t necessarily overpowered either as that defends on the strength difference between the attacker and the defender. The problem with deflect is more of a balance issue where it can be overpowered in some circumstances and underpowered in others.

I hate getting deflected, but I say leave it alone. I wouldn't be angry about deflect being limited to the health you have left or maybe 2x health left.

Why 2x health? For what rational reason should deflect be able to do twice as much damage to the attacker than the attacker can do to the defender? From my knowledge, deflect is the only skill that counts total damage and not just the amount of damage done. Why should deflect have special logic?

The only way I would consider scaling would be if deflecting losses did more return damage, but enforcers have last stand.

That could help with deflect being underpowered when you’re being hit by a smaller killer but it doesn’t address deflect being overpowered when a big killer is hitting a small defender.

[DFish]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

When I said routinely, I meant every war my ghosts hits a defender he can't beat for over 1k damage. I stopped taking screen shots it is so often. Some of that is my LT load out, Overkill, Hyena, Vanquish, Ms Conduct, and Dragon Lord, but most of it is just the class itself is a crazy strong.

I understand you ghosts hate deflect. We defenders hate you, lol.

It's all RNG, you have small but not improbable chance to suffer a massive deflect. A one in 6 chance on each of your massive hits might get deflected.

What should the mechanics look like for a revamp of deflect look like? How would you write the description in one sentence into the class skills page.

[Metalstorm]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

When I said routinely, I meant every war my ghosts hits a defender he can't beat for over 1k damage. I stopped taking screen shots it is so often. Some of that is my LT load out, Overkill, Hyena, Vanquish, Ms Conduct, and Dragon Lord, but most of it is just the class itself is a crazy strong.

Ok but anecdotal evidence isn’t evidence of anything. The plural of anecdote is not data. Just because you seem to experience outliers (which may appear to occur more often than they should due to a combination of cognitive bias and the fact that your LT skills directly synergise with ghost skills making them seem more powerful than they actually are) does not mean that other people are too. And if you look at the probabilities of such a hit occurring you can statistically determine that your circumstance is not the norm. You are also still comparing multiple tier 2 skills and LT synergy to a single tier 1 skill which is not a valid comparison at all.

Additionally, if you wish to claim that ghost is overpowered based purely on its skills, independent of any synergy there is an easy way to test that. Change your item and LT setups such that none of them synergise with your ghost skills and see how powerful it is then. Because if you are hitting a defender that is weaker than you, deflect is overpowered independent of those factors.

I understand you ghosts hate deflect. We defenders hate you, lol.

If that’s what you’ve taken from this then you have missed the point of this thread. Wether or not deflect is annoying is not a factor. When you’re considering wether or not a skill is balanced, the only factors you should be considering are those that pertain to wether or not the skill is balanced. Additionally it’s more than possible to have a skill that is both annoying to deal with and well balanced but that’s not a good reason to change that skill, at least not from a balance perspective. The problems with deflect have been stated many times already in this thread by myself and others so I won’t rehash them again.

It's all RNG, you have small but not improbable chance to suffer a massive deflect. A one in 6 chance on each of your massive hits might get deflected.

But why should a small defender have even an improbable chance to inflict massive damage on a toon that it ordinarily would not be able to touch? I think most people are also overlooking the utility and impact of being able to do that without needing to spend any tokens or even be active in the current war. No other skill other than nanosuit has anywhere near this much impact on a war without the requirements of activity or tokens which should both be prerequisites to having any skill proc.

I’ve also previously demonstrated that as you hit smaller toons with deflect 3, the probability of a 1hit ko deflect approaches 15% whereas if you hit toons much larger than yourself the probability of a 1hit ko deflect approaches 0%. That’s not how a well balanced skill should function.

What should the mechanics look like for a revamp of deflect look like? How would you write the description in one sentence into the class skills page.

I have already outlined in multiple posts in this thread how I believe deflect should be changed to make it a more fair skill. There’s no reason for me to list it again here.

As for how I would write a description of the skill? I admittedly haven’t put much thought into that. As sound as my suggestions appear I don’t actually know if they would even be any good. It’s entirely possible that upon testing they could create unforeseen problems. Given the high likelihood of skills being tweaked or changed after initial testing I think it’s pointless to write a succinct description until it has been finalised.

[DFish]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

One of your main arguments is that deflect gets weaker as a defender gets stronger. Turtle and Nano Suit have that same issue. The stronger I am the less turtle blocks and the less armor I gain when hit. Vengeance gets stronger the more powerful you are, but that's the only defense skill that works that way. As a defender becomes stronger he becomes more reliant on his stats and LTs and not skills.

A strong defender with deflect received the bonus on not taking any damage on that hit, even if the attacker received less damage himself. While it does less damage on counter, it protects defender health. That's not nothing.

The offensive skills grow stronger as you grow stronger on all classes and you are suggesting defense work the same way.

I think the previous developers and new ones are making a conscious effort to make the game offensive. The game changed drastically when they reworked the damage calculations two years or so ago. You could see the difference in damage immediately. Deflect and turtle are the only two skills that go against that trend.

Lets apply your argument to turtle- turtle shouldn't block half the damage done by a toon 10 times it's size. But if they are even then turtle should block half. Do you want a Titan you can't beat to block half your damage, plus hit back with vengeance. Or for deflect, it hit back harder on losses? That seems like adding insult to injury and will make defenders much stronger. How many threads are there about people complaining about EVE length?

Much of the game scrolls backward, for lack of a better term. Kate's defense bonus becomes pointless, where Colt could become exponentially more powerful and he's a common LT. I can't list all the LTs that grow weaker as you grow stronger.

I can support having passives cut in half if asleep. I can also support limited deflect to health on the enforcer. I wouldn't be in favor of making deflect power based.

[Xcali1985]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

One of your main arguments is that deflect gets weaker as a defender gets stronger. Turtle and Nano Suit have that same issue. The stronger I am the less turtle blocks and the less armor I gain when hit. Vengeance gets stronger the more powerful you are, but that's the only defense skill that works that way. As a defender becomes stronger he becomes more reliant on his stats and LTs and not skills.

A strong defender with deflect received the bonus on not taking any damage on that hit, even if the attacker received less damage himself. While it does less damage on counter, it protects defender health. That's not nothing.

The offensive skills grow stronger as you grow stronger on all classes and you are suggesting defense work the same way.

I think the previous developers and new ones are making a conscious effort to make the game offensive. The game changed drastically when they reworked the damage calculations two years or so ago. You could see the difference in damage immediately. Deflect and turtle are the only two skills that go against that trend.

Lets apply your argument to turtle- turtle shouldn't block half the damage done by a toon 10 times it's size. But if they are even then turtle should block half. Do you want a Titan you can't beat to block half your damage, plus hit back with vengeance. Or for deflect, it hit back harder on losses? That seems like adding insult to injury and will make defenders much stronger. How many threads are there about people complaining about EVE length?

Much of the game scrolls backward, for lack of a better term. Kate's defense bonus becomes pointless, where Colt could become exponentially more powerful and he's a common LT. I can't list all the LTs that grow weaker as you grow stronger.

I can support having passives cut in half if asleep. I can also support limited deflect to health on the enforcer. I wouldn't be in favor of making deflect power based.

Your turtle vs deflect analogy doesn't fit the OP original argument. Turtle can block whatever because it doesn't have the risk of a level 100 with turtle doing damage to a level 5000 at a rate that is significantly higher than they would be if they were attacking.

2 changes that can be made to deflect and I would think it would be fair.

1 - limit deflect to defenders current health. I think that's more than fair as attackers don't get credit for shots that are above the players health.

OR

2 - deflect the shot not the damage. This can be applied in 2 ways. Either the shot is deflected and the damage is based like the deflector use an actual token, or deflect it back at original strength and apply damage as if someone of equal skill deflected the shot. I personally prefer the deflect as if deflector used a token because then you can apply a scaler such as % of def power.

[Irish]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

I think that what needs to be thought of are the new players. How is a new player supposed to contribute in war? How do they feel like they are contributing in some way that actually helps? Class skills. These skills give newer players the ability to impact the war in some way. Should a player be unable to impact the war just because they just started? I think people are forgetting that the game does has an element of strategy to it. If you see a weak enforcer all you have to do is not hit him. Plague him. Have a titan bullrush off of him and hit the tougher defenders next to him. Use skills that cant be deflected like impale or incinerate and decapitate. Nepalm the building and move on to a different one. use teamwork. I leave weaker guys to the weaker guys on the team. As far as the nonactive players having thier skills and stats active im not sure how i feel about it. Maybe have some sort of debuff on nonactives, or make it so thier class skills or lietutenants arent counted. Maybe the more wars you miss in a row the less effective you are. 1 percent off for each war missed. Basically im all for expanding the player base and keeping this game that ive spent thousands of hours playing going.