Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

[Reaper9292]

deflect needs reworking

if u guys are working on reworking tier 1 classes i would suggest a change into deflect passive skill.
at this moment the more stats u put into defense the higher is the damage u shield which leads to lower damage taken as well as lower deflect damage .
so i was thinking about reworking it so it deflects 100% of the damage + 5% of defense power as damage to the attacker.
this way stronger u get the stronger ur deflect gets and not the other way around.
thanks

[Bungboy]

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

im not comparing deflect with lucky shot .
what i have been trying to say is that all 8 classes have their unique skills that makes them do things that others cant never do and for someone that plays one class , what another class is able to do its seems to him as its unbalanced or overpower but its not, its very well designed.

Then explain WHY it's "well designed." We have explained endlessly why it is in fact actually poorly designed, using facts, numbers, and valid comparisons. Your only argument seems to be that because deflect is unique, it must be balanced. And because a strong ghost can one shot a weak enforcer, a weak enforcer should be able to one shot a strong ghost (???). How exactly do you balance 8 classes without comparing the strengths of the abilities? By just making sure they're unique? Lol?

[Bungboy]

Re: deflect needs reworking

5% is nothing. Good idea though. Nerf the base % to 25% and give it +15% defense power deflect. Then it'll be a skill that truly scales up with your account strength like the other class skills. 10k defense would deflect a minimum of 1.5k. Strong defenders would deflect consistently high damage to all classes who attack them.

[Xcali1985]

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

All I know is that if you have 1800 health and I hit a 3k crit on you the most that should be deflected back is 1800. I only get credit for 1800 if it's not deflected. So how do you get more credit off my shot than I would have gotten if it wasn't deflected.

The OPs issue could easily be solved by making the skill reflect the shot not the damage. So when someone fires a shot it's deflected and the attacker takes normal damage as if the defender used a token. You could even boost the damage taken by 10%.

I personally lose my top when an inactive player deflects, but I won't write an essay on that.

[Reaper9292]

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

Then explain WHY it's "well designed." We have explained endlessly why it is in fact actually poorly designed, using facts, numbers, and valid comparisons. Your only argument seems to be that because deflect is unique, it must be balanced. And because a strong ghost can one shot a weak enforcer, a weak enforcer should be able to one shot a strong ghost (???). How exactly do you balance 8 classes without comparing the strengths of the abilities? By just making sure they're unique? Lol?

u balance them by countering each skill with another , for a ghost that deflect is scary but for a reaper that deflect is nothing.
well desinged bcz as a defender it gives u a chance to shield all the damage which will lead to absorbing more tokens as well as damaging enemy attackers and making them think twice before attacking and making them put their mind to work on how to play it better , thats how strategy games work.

[Bungboy]

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

u balance them by countering each skill with another , for a ghost that deflect is scary but for a reaper that deflect is nothing.
well desinged bcz as a defender it gives u a chance to shield all the damage which will lead to absorbing more tokens as well as damaging enemy attackers and making them think twice before attacking and making them put their mind to work on how to play it better , thats how strategy games work.

A level 100 enforcer will one shot a 10000 reaper too if he crits and it deflects. You don't address my argument. You never do. You don't explain why it's okay for deflect to allow a weak inactive to literally one shot someone who is a thousand times stronger. It's numerically imbalanced and is therefore a broken mechanic.

Deflect can still be deflect without letting level 100s one shot level 10000s. You don't explain why this is okay. Your argument is beyond vague. "It's a strategy game." I don't disagree that UE is a strategy game. That doesn't convince me that deflect is a balanced skill at all. I continue to ask, why is it okay for a level 100 enforcer to one shot a level 10000? Why can't it be capped for a low level? A low level is not supposed to stand a chance against a level 10000. Deflect is the exception. None of the other 7 classes would stand a chance as a level 100 against a level 10000. Why is it okay for this skill to scale backwards with your account strength, and why is it even allowed to be so ridiculously powerful for a low leveled enforcer? Shouldn't you be rewarded, not punished for improving your account? Rather than attempting to debunk my argument, you just continue ignore it.

If the ONLY strategy to beat a level 10000 as a level 100 is to pick enforcer and level up deflect, again that is the epitome of an imbalanced skill. If your argument is that little guys should have a chance to beat a level 10000 with a good strategy, then WHY does no other class stand a chance? Why does no other class have such a tool to utterly destroy a level 10000? Surely a level 100 sniper should be able to kill a level 10000 assassin if he has a good strategy, right? Why is this not the case?

[Reaper9292]

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

A level 100 enforcer will one shot a 10000 reaper too if he crits and it deflects. You don't address my argument. You never do. You don't explain why it's okay for deflect to allow a weak inactive to literally one shot someone who is a thousand times stronger. It's numerically imbalanced and is therefore a broken mechanic.

Deflect can still be deflect without letting level 100s one shot level 10000s. You don't explain why this is okay. Your argument is beyond vague. "It's a strategy game." I don't disagree that UE is a strategy game. That doesn't convince me that deflect is a balanced skill at all. I continue to ask, why is it okay for a level 100 enforcer to one shot a level 10000? Why can't it be capped for a low level? A low level is not supposed to stand a chance against a level 10000. Deflect is the exception. None of the other 7 classes would stand a chance as a level 100 against a level 10000. Why is it okay for this skill to scale backwards with your account strength, and why is it even allowed to be so ridiculously powerful for a low leveled enforcer? Shouldn't you be rewarded, not punished for improving your account? Rather than attempting to debunk my argument, you just continue ignore it.

If the ONLY strategy to beat a level 10000 as a level 100 is to pick enforcer and level up deflect, again that is the epitome of an imbalanced skill. If your argument is that little guys should have a chance to beat a level 10000 with a good strategy, then WHY does no other class stand a chance? Why does no other class have such a tool to utterly destroy a level 10000?

it might kill me too as a reaper but with plague and preciseblade i reduce the chance to less the 7% so i rarely get killed by a single deflect.
why cant it be capped for a low level?
is snipers critcal chance/damage capped when hitting a low lvl ? no its not
a lvl 100 has only 15% chance to deflect the hit from a lvl 10000 and even less chance to kill the attack with that hit while the lvl 10000 attacker has more then 50% to one hit kill the lvl 100 defender.
"None of the other 7 classes would stand a chance as a level 100 against a level 10000".
just bcz none of other classes cant do that doesnt mean enfocer shouldnt be able to do it too.
none of other class has a chance to 4x critical damage but ghosts do
none of other classes can capp at 1000 but reapers do.
none of other class can place traps that when detonate will damage you and your building but heavies do.
and on and on.

[Reaper9292]

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

All I know is that if you have 1800 health and I hit a 3k crit on you the most that should be deflected back is 1800. I only get credit for 1800 if it's not deflected. So how do you get more credit off my shot than I would have gotten if it wasn't deflected.

this i agree with .
yes why should an enforcer deflect a 3k hit if that hit would only do 1800 damage.
to change that might be hard to code i guess

[Bungboy]

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

it might kill me too as a reaper but with plague and preciseblade i reduce the chance to less the 7% so i rarely get killed by a single deflect.
why cant it be capped for a low level?
is snipers critcal chance/damage capped when hitting a low lvl ? no its not
a lvl 100 has only 15% chance to deflect the hit from a lvl 10000 and even less chance to kill the attack with that hit while the lvl 10000 attacker has more then 50% to one hit kill the lvl 100 defender.
"None of the other 7 classes would stand a chance as a level 100 against a level 10000".
just bcz none of other classes cant do that doesnt mean enfocer shouldnt be able to do it too.
none of other class has a chance to 4x critical damage but ghosts do
none of other classes can capp at 1000 but reapers do.
none of other class can place traps that when detonate will damage you and your building but heavies do.
and on and on.

Dude IT IS FINE for classes to have unique abilities and roles. That's the whole point of classes. I didn't say it wasn't fine. Your argument seems to be that we can't even compare classes because they have unique roles. But if this was the case then how do we know whether something is balanced or not? Hint: We HAVE to look at the numbers to determine whether the game is balanced. My point is that deflect is numerically imbalanced and I really do think you're trolling at this point because I've repeatedly asked you why it needs to one shot a guy who's 1000 times the strength. Why can't it be capped? You're comparing it to snipers? Lol? A level 100 sniper hits a level 10000 for like 30 damage so what are you even trying to get at with this?

"Ghost has 4x crit." Okay? How is that a response to my question? A level 100 ghost with 4x crit doesn't do anything to a level 10000. That's what the comparison is supposed to be. A level 100 heavy doesn't do anything to a level 10000. That's the what the comparison is supposed to be. A reaper capping for 1000 damage? Really? What kind of comparisons even are these? They may be facts but they are so blatantly irrelevant to the discussion that this is why I feel like you're trolling. Not to mention, you're again comparing tier 2 to tier 1. None of these statements excuse the fact that a level 100 shouldn't have the strength to one shot a level 10000, especially if his health is only like 2k so it isn't even high enough to actually deflect a hit for 10k. At the very least it should be capped at the current health of the defender because it's just nonsense for someone to fully deflect a hit that they couldn't have possibly fully taken.

Just because it was designed this way does not automatically make it balanced. There is such a thing as poor design, which is exactly what deflect is. The scaling is completely backwards, to the point that not only is it ridiculously strong if you are weak, but it's ridiculously weak when you're strong. This is a flawed design. To fix deflect, start by capping the damage at the defenders current health, and to buff it, give it scaling damage based off the defender's defense.

[Chaos A.D]

Re: deflect needs reworking

Maybe start at 18% damage deflected at 15% chance and add +12% chance and 5% damage every time you deflect, up to 100% like a killing spree. We can call it deflect spree.
And add +9% chance to every non deflected shot.

Or like ghost.
Deflect 15% damage 15%

Passive
4x chance to deflect
50% chance to 4x deflect damage.

*Sorry I don't remember the numbers from headshot, killing spree and all the other skills.
But I think you got the point.

[Reaper9292]

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

To fix deflect, start by capping the damage at the defenders current health, and to buff it, give it scaling damage based off the defender's defense.

yes that i agree , that is indeed a fix and im pro with it .
but if u come in talking about reducing deflect damage from 100% to 20% for weak accounts that is just wrong.
reducing deflect damage is a thing and capping it based on the defenders current health is another.
why are two different things?,bcz if i invest adding stats to health and not defense i do so just to kill that strong ghost with my deflect. your way of fixing it which i agree with is different from the main post and it still gives me the ability to one hit kill a strong attack when having a good amount of health .

[Bungboy]

Re: Deflect is horribly unbalanced

yes that i agree , that is indeed a fix and im pro with it .
but if u come in talking about reducing deflect damage from 100% to 20% for weak accounts that is just wrong.
reducing deflect damage is a thing and capping it based on the defenders current health is another.
why are two different things?,bcz if i invest adding stats to health and not defense i do so just to kill that strong ghost with my deflect. your way of fixing it which i agree with is different from the main post and it still gives me the ability to one hit kill a strong attack when having a good amount of health .

Fair enough. If the enforcer has like 7k+ health remaining, I don't have an issue with getting deflected for the whole hit. That requires him to invest in a decent amount of health stat points, lieutenants, and insignias invested into the health. I simply have an issue with just "any" weak account always being able to one shot a very strong ghost with deflect at a 15% chance, no matter the circumstance or how low health they are because by principle it is imbalanced. It takes no stat investment to do basically infinite damage, while every other class needs to have stats points and LTs.

When I talked about reducing deflect to 20% damage for weak accounts I was talking about player level comparisons as an example of how it could possibly be balanced. Like if a level 100 is hit by a level 1000. It's not a perfect suggestion but I meant it to be an example of how a balanced scaling skill actually works. Skills should scale up in strength when you improve your account. They shouldn't scale down like deflect does. I find it ridiculous that deflect is only so good for utterly weak accounts who have little to no investment, while everyone else just upgrades to titan no matter what because enforcer doesn't scale up well as you improve your account. This is why I also want deflect to have a defense power % ratio so playing enforcer is still an option for strong accounts.

[Guest]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

Combined Deflect threads and adjusted the title of current thread. Discussion continues, cheers.

[Metalstorm]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

Maybe start at 18% damage deflected at 15% chance and add +12% chance and 5% damage every time you deflect, up to 100% like a killing spree.

Being able to get your deflect chance up to 100% would be game breakingly broken. How do you kill someone who negates all incoming damage and deflects it all back?

Even if you had level 1 deflect at 18% damage deflected and 15% chance to proc and then increased the percentage of damage deflected for levels 2 and 3, it would still have the same problems it currently has.

This is why I suggested their should be a modifier based on the relative strengths of the attacking and defending toon that determines how much damage is deflected whereby if you are attacking a toon half your strength you should only be able to receive a maximum of 50% deflect damage or 25% deflect damage for a toon one quarter your strength or up to 100% if you’re hitting defenders as strong or stronger than you.

Currently if a level 1500 (with 4K health left) lands a 5k crit on a level 750 who has 2k health remaining he can take the full 5k deflect killing him.

With the changes I propose, the maximum possible deflect in this case would be 2k because that’s how much health the defender has remaining and because the attacker is twice as strong as the defender only 50% of the damage would be deflected meaning the defender would negate the incoming damage and deal 1000 deflect damage.

Even under those conditions it is still a powerful (albeit much more balanced) skill as it is still dealing 1000 damage without needing to spend a token or even needing to be active.

I can’t think of any other skills that are anywhere near as impactful as that under those circumstances.

[Will777]

Re: Deflect balance/issues/suggestions

I don't think deflect is horribly unbalanced. Sure it can annoy a lot if you happen to get bad luck and get several deflects in a row but that's part of the game. The devs could take a look at the amount of damage received from a deflect but it's up to them. I think deflect is a fun skill and nerfing deflect would probably hurt too much the enforcer class. You can try counter the deflects by using ghost tag, health setup and armor.